N-Banter Edition 12: Part 2 Primed and Swinging
Column by Jeff Van Camp, Cory Faller

Edition: 07-26-2005

Two minds...one column. Two motives...one goal. Two editors...one conversation. You have now entered a dimension unlike any other. This is N-Banter.

In the second (albeit late) part of our first two part edition, Cory and I diverge entirely from the realm of Harvest Moon and viciously attack 3D iterations of our favorite series. Pokmon and Sonic each take light beatings, while the Metroid Prime series is ripped apart, piece by phazon infected piece.

(continued from part 1s climactic finale)
Jeffs pregnancy was later proven to be a hoax. Cory, having already purchased hundreds of dollars of baby supplies, was furious. After the ensuing bloodbath, somehow the two resumed their previous conversation exactly where it had been interrupted...

Jeff: Every one of these Harvest Moon games takes tiny baby steps forward here and there, but sacrifices one or another element of the HM formula to do it. And it is a formula -- a formula that has yet to attain full potency.

Cory: There's got to be a phenomenon to the gaming industry that I don't fully understand; one where if you're close to the development of a title, you can't see the obvious flaws and their obvious solutions.

Jeff: Obvious flaws and obvious solutions don't always mean easy solutions. We can talk about solutions that seem easy to us because we are passive observers, but traveling to the other side of the fence could and would dispel that notion entirely. It's kind of like writing an essay. I can write it and edit it all day, but when you get a hold of it youre going to find tons of little things that I never caught.

Cory: There are a lot of games like that, where they never fix their obvious problems -- problems that fans have a million ideas to fix. But the thing is, it never seems like the developers CARE. From all the dev diaries and interviews I've read, they never seem concerned. They always talk about completely different things, things regarding "oh we want to do this and that," but they're ALWAYS things that are just expanding upon or adding to current concepts. I've never really seen a developer legitimately try to fix core flaws in one of their games. They always seem to ignore them and add content in a million other places, but never address the problematic ones. I fear it may be based on sales or overall perception.

Two prime examples: Pokmon and Sonic. Pokmon sells like water, so they just keep making it. They might actually be afraid of changing it.

Jeff: I'm sure they are.

Cory: Even if it's full of issues, their alteration might alienate their audience of people who don't notice/care about the issues. Sonic, I don't know what that's about. Sonic in 3D is inherently broken. How do they try to fix it? By giving Shadow the Hedgehog guns.

Jeff: No one knows how to make a good 3D Sonic game. Not Sega, not anyone. Perhaps you, but we don't design games.

Cory: I have had serious LONG entire-night conversations with people about how to make sonic in 3D. My ideas are far from perfect, but they're LEAGUES ahead of the bullshit that Sega is churning out now.

Jeff: Yes, yes. I was a part of those conversations...I've heard it all. On a side note, the Sonic Advance games were great.

Cory: Of course! Because they're still 2D! The sonic gameplay works FINE in 2D (more or less), but Sega didn't try to change it for 3D! They just kept it exactly the same!

Jeff: Mario needs a 3D overhaul as well. Mario, as a series, changed completely from 2D to 3D. Somewhat for the better, somewhat for the worse.

Cory: But see, to go from 2D to 3D, a change is necessary. Otherwise, the change doesn't accomplish anything (Kirby) or is a disaster (Sonic).

Jeff: Kirby's are still side-scrollers.

Cory: Exactly! 3D didn't add anything to them. The change was unnecessary. All it did in Kirby 64 was make the game 2-3 times SLOWER than older ones.

Jeff: Polygonal side-scrollers always seem "looser" than sprite based games. Something always feels off about them.

Cory: They do, definitely. That's exactly why I don't like what I've seen of the New Super Mario Bros. on the DS. There are games that have transitioned just fine, though (in terms of adding polygons to a side-scroller). Though the VAST majority of them fail horribly. Mega Man, for example.

Self Explanatory

Jeff: Mega Man. Talk about a franchise that lacks the ability to evolve.

Cory: It evolved just fine. It's called Viewtiful Joe. But anyway I don't consider Kirby as having ever had a truly 3D iteration. So the Kirby gameplay has yet to be realistically altered to accommodate.

Jeff: Ah! Viewtiful Joe. That was a great 3D side-scroller. Though enemies were often 2D. The best Kirby game is still Kirby Super Star. I haven't played Canvas Curse enough yet.

Cory: Donkey Kong...I don't know if I'd consider DK64 a legitimate move to 3D, since Jungle Beat brought it back to 2D. I wouldn't be surprised that if Nintendo makes a DK in 3D again, they ignore DK64's foundation.

Jeff: DK64 doesn't exist, Cory. I never want to talk about it again.

Cory: Ha. Fair enough. So, 2D Nintendo games that have yet to be made 3D: DK, Kirby. Ones that have been successfully transitioned: Mario, Zelda.

Jeff: Earthbound.

Cory: Earthbound doesn't need much of a change. That's the case for the vast majority of RPGs. The gameplay transcends dimensions most of the time, since the vast majority of RPGs are isometric.

Jeff: As little a change as Earthbound needs, Nintendo hasn't been able to do it. The Wars series is trying to go 3D this year.

Cory: Wars doesn't really count. It doesn't seem like a series going from 2D to 3D.

Jeff: Sure it is.

Cory: See

Jeff: Fire Emblem is moving to 3D as well.

Cory: HOLD ON LET ME FREAKING TALK.

Jeff: Fine fine.

Cory: Fire Emblem and Wars are two series that completely transcend dimension. If you'll notice, though it's 3D, the GCN Fire Emblem is identical to all the 2D ones. If they had done it properly, Battalion Wars would be the same. The thing about those games is that the very CORE of their gameplay is tied to playing the game like a game of chess: a plane-based playing field with strategic movement. No one talks about moving chess from 2D to 3D, because the whole idea is plane-based movement. Battalion Wars isn't a 3D interpretation of the Wars series in the least. Its a strategic war game with the Wars name on it.

Jeff: Okay, so doesn't that mean Metroid Prime is a first person shooter with the Metroid name on it?

Cory: No. It's not the same with Metroid. In Metroid Prime, the gameplay is (more or less) identical to the old Metroids: exploration, moving around freely, shooting. It's just a change of perspective, not a fundamental change of mental playing style.

Jeff: I say that Mario Kart never made it to 3D unscathed solely because Super Mario Kart is still the most fun.

Cory: I don't really count Mario Kart as a game that can make the "transition," much in the same way that I never mentioned Star Fox. Despite how archaic their freshman outings may have been, they were originally designed around the "idea" of 3D movement. There's never been a 2D Mario Kart or Star Fox.

Jeff: What about Excitebike 64?

Cory: Well that wasn't really a transition at all. The games had nothing to do with each other. Excitebike isn't a game that can really make the "transition." The NES game didn't have enough substance to transition to anything.

Jeff: Yeah. It was pretty awesome.

Cory: If they were gonna make a 3D Excitebike, theyd have to pretty much throw away everything from the original. Excitebike doesn't really have a "core mechanic" that can be brought out of a game that simplistic and applied to another interpretation.

Jeff: Sure it does. Angle your bike right and dont overheat.

Cory: I guess the core mechanics were temperature management and bike angling, but those aren't really "Excitebike is about this!" things. Those are just natural things to find in ANY bike game.

Jeff: Here's what needs a 3D update: Balloon Fight. Here's what doesn't: Kid Icarus.

Cory: God, I don't understand the obsession with wanting that game [Kid Icarus] remade. Was it REALLY that popular?

Jeff: Only a few hardcore fans seem to even remember it enough to care. Others just want it because they've heard it was an old NES game. Dig Dug could be fun.

Cory: I don't know if I ever even played Dig Dug.

Jeff: You missed out. But anyway, let's list what hasn't made the transition thus far.

Cory: I can't think of any series that really BEGs for it. Sure, shit like Kid Icarus, but it's not that important.

Jeff: Ice Climbers. Haha.

Cory: Agh, the only series that really seemed unfairly skipped over in terms of 3D was Metroid, and that was addressed.

A Prime Digression

Samus Aran: Hunter for Hire?

Cory: Brief tangent. Remind me to return to Kirby when I'm done. I'm sick of the Metroid Prime atmosphere. I'm sick of Phazon. I'm sick of that same goddamned synthesizer sample that they use in so many of the songs -- the one that sounds vaguely like a choral note. The whole thing is starting to feel generic. I want the next game to go back to an environment like Zebes.

Jeff: The worlds don't feel alive enough. I don't like a lot of industrial-like environments. I'd rather fight weird natural creatures than space pirates and dark infested creatures

Cory: Zebes is still more engaging as an environment than any of the MP ones. Unfortunately, the MP3 teaser seems to imply that Phazon isn't going away any time soon. I mean, it can't just go away. The storyline with it and Dark Samus needs concluding. And I'm sure it'll be cool, but I want games that aren't full of it.

Jeff: It doesn't need to go away. The only thing they need to do is not make it "the" critical reason for everything like they did in MP2. I'd rather they go back to being somewhat about Metroids...

Cory: Basically, I don't want "Metroid" to turn into "Metroid Prime" I want them to make games outside of that timeline instance. Like, games after Metroid Fusion. And I want them on the Revolution. It seems that the non-prime games are becoming limited to the handheld market. Though Prime is starting to invade there, too, with MP: Hunters.

Jeff: Hunters has no appeal to me.

Cory: Hunters would appeal to me a lot more if it were online. I have no one to play it with here. As it is now, I have no reason to buy it.

Jeff: Honestly, Prime was fine. Prime 2 just took some easy routes out of explaining things.

Cory: I'm only interested in it based on the hope that it might have a good single player mode Though it seems like it'll be the reverse of Prime 2, in that it'll be designed around multiplayer, with single as an afterthought, which is something that I dislike. Metroid was never something that begged for multiplayer. I don't like that they're starting to emphasize it more. I'm sure MP3 will have a much deeper multiplayer mode in it. Honestly, I just want it to go away. I don't like the stigmata of the FPS genre in that it demands that a game have multiplayer in order for it to have any worth. If MP was in third person, I guarantee no one would be saying "OMG WHERE'S TEH MULTI."

Jeff: Multiplayer isn't a problem. My problems with MP2 were with its overall environments, weapons, etc. A major issue for me is that I wished I was using more standard weapons, even though I want games that don't feel the same.

Cory: Yeah, it's a weird dichotomy. I want games that are new and fresh too, but for some reason, it feels... off in Metroid. I want Super Metroid [environments] in 3D.

Jeff: Here's the thing. I knew the second I booted up Prime 2 that I could only have four weapons. I pretty much knew everything that was coming. They all seemed like changed up versions of the guns in MP. That bothered me. They even looked like the old guns. The fact that I couldn't have an Ice Beam in multiplayer either was bothersome.

Cory: Very true. You knew from the start that Prime 2 would have the same template as Prime -- same number of suits, visors, and guns. That's something I love about Twilight Princess, actually (that they remade the menu with the PURPOSE of hiding the number of items).

Jeff: Yeah, I like that as well. Anyway, I knew there would be a Dark and Light Beam as well. The whole two dimension thing just seems played out. I'd rather get more into the war between the Space Pirates and the Luminoth. Does Samus actually get paid for any of this? What are her motivations? Sometimes I wonder. She goes through a lot of crap.

Cory: They always seem to come up with reasons for her to do it for free.

Jeff: I wouldn't mind it being a real assignment -- having some secondary missions or something.

Cory: That's the thing. I think they're starting to play her off like Star Fox: a mercenary, but one that works for the government. They don't seem too comfortable with the idea of a mercenary group that's completely autonomous. Star Fox was like that in SF64, but SF Assault seems to have nerfed them. They didn't collect any money, as far as I know. It was just a "save the galaxy!" story for the sake of saving the galaxy. Though, admittedly, in the case of Samus, Hunters is playing strongly off the idea that she's a bounty hunter on her own terms.

Jeff: I'd like to see flashbacks of her youth; to really get to know her character. There's so much room for things like voice acting. They don't even have to speak English.

Cory: See, while no voice acting isn't awkward in Zelda, it was VERY awkward in Prime 2. It was the first game, really, with NPCs and you just had to read what they said.

Jeff: Those soldiers could have talked in the logs as well.

Cory: I'm not asking for English. They made a grunt at the beginning of most blocks of text, but they could've EASILY had the Luminoth speak coherently in an alien language. Full sentences, stuff that matched up and could be logically subtitled. I don't need voice acting for the logs, but when the Luminoth talked directly to Samus it would have been helpful.

Jeff: They need to hire a cinema guy and learn how to make a cinematic game. Mixing Halo's cinematic cutscene style with a Metroid game would be incredible.

Cory: Prime 2's cinematics were a mixed bag. A few parts were REALLY cool, like Dark Samus shooting the crystal behind Samus's head at the beginning. And Dark Samus freaking out after a battle with her, kneeling in pain and reaching desperately out at Samus as she looked on, shocked. That was really cool. But then there were lame things like Samus's interactions with the Luminoth and the "secret" ending. God, that was so pathetic. I mean, it got its point across, but there was NO impact to it (the secret ending).

Dark Samus

Jeff: Mixed bags don't win over audiences. The intro to the game was also terrible.

Cory: Yeah, the opening was lame as hell too. Prime is another series that has a lot of potential that's yet to be explored. In this case, solely in terms of out-of-gameplay presentation.

Jeff: Don't say Prime! Say Metroid.

Cory: I'm not referring to Metroid. I'm referring to Prime. "Metroid" is doing just fine on the GBA.

Jeff: I'm sick of them all being called Prime lately.

Cory: Well to me, they're very different in terms of style and thematic content. Zero Mission did its shit just fine -- very brief storytelling, but very well done. I really liked how they did the storytelling in Zero Mission. The game had brief snippets that implied events and the rest of the actually storyline events were your actions, not cinematics.

Jeff: Hmm. Elaborate on that, if you could. I haven't played Zero Mission yet.

Cory: Oh, well at the beginning there's a text intro as Samus lands. She says what she's doing there, what her mission is, etc. From then on all storytelling is brief drawn cinematics at key points (usually when going down an elevator to a new area). Like, a five second movie of Ridley landing his ship on the planet or a three second movie of Kraid opening his eyes.

Jeff: Ooh. That sounds tense.

Cory: Then, right before the Zero Mission bonus content, there's another text scene like the intro to the game.

Jeff: Bonus content?

Cory: Do you want to know about it? Or be surprised by it when you play it?

Jeff: Half and half. Tell me a bit. I don't care if I'm surprised. With 2D Metroids its a full experience.

Cory: Let's just say that it explains what the hell the ghost ship was doing on Zebes in Super Metroid, and where he hell it was in Metroid 1.

Jeff: Ooh! Does it come with free ghosts?

Cory: No ghosts. It's not a ghost ship in Zero Mission.

Jeff: Bummer. Interesting, though.

Cory: There's a lot of cool stuff in Zero Mission, though. It connects the game to Super Metroid with that ship and connects the game to Prime with a whole new area (one that you'll enter very early on), though you won't see nearly all of it that early.

Jeff: Did they change the layout of Zebes to more match with Super Metroid?

Cory: I think so.

Jeff: Good, good.

Cory: Let's just say the game isn't over when you beat Mother Brain. You can even go back to Tourian afterward. The place is all blown up and destroyed, but still there, which explains how it's still around in Super Metroid. There's a super missile upgrade beneath the destroyed Mother Brain container!

Jeff: Hah, it's on my list of games to play, for sure.

Cory: Though the new content after Mother Brain is VERY different from typical Metroid content. You get to a point through it, though, that you get full control and regain Metroid gameplay. The boss is almost right after that, but you can go back and do a whole lot of new stuff after that point, with your new suit abilities.

Jeff: Full control? What the crap are you talking about? How is it different from Metroid gameplay?

Cory: If I told you that it'd completely give away what's happening, so that part will remain a surprise.

Jeff: Grr. Fine

Cory: Seriously. Buy the game. Put it at the top of your list. It has the best speed boost puzzles ever. I love Metroid Fusion for introducing those to the series. That and grabbing ledges were the best additions to the franchise that the game supplied.

Jeff: And fear. That game scared the crap out of me. I always felt hunted. Even though I knew it was scripted, this knowledge provided me little solace.

Cory: Yeah, that WAS great. I wish that was in MP2, though MP2 DID have some cool stuff like that. Seeing Dark Samus fucking up the space pirates behind that glass was sweet.

Jeff: It wasnt like Fusion though.

Cory: Certainly not like Fusion, though. I was never afraid of Dark Samus because I knew I could kick the crap out of her. The SA-X, though, that shit was invincible, and terrifying! I've told you my idea about how I wanted the whole "other Samus" thing to play out, right?

Jeff: No.

Cory: The scene where the SA-X is freaking out and killing the metroids? I wanted that to culminate in the realization that YOU were the clone the whole time, and the SA-X hunting you was the real Samus. I also really hope that Nintendo runs with the largely fan-supported theory that the Metroid Prime is actually a Metroid infected by an X parasite.

Back to Kirby

hours later!

Cory: Oh hey, do you want to finish up that conversation from earlier?

Jeff: Sure.

Cory: All I wanted to finish talking about was the potential for Kirby in true 3D, since the only way it's been done so far was the city mode in Kirby Air Ride -- a game I have yet to play. I only played it for a tiny bit at Josh [Langleys] house. It's hardly indicative of how a true 3D Kirby should be.

Kirby GCN A Lesson in Pseudo 3D

Jeff: Kirby has a ton of 3D potential, but HAL is already stretched thin.

Cory: So, Kirby has the same problem Mario would have in a 3D translation. Namely, the game is all about progressing straight through the level, start to finish, finding secrets along the way. Start to finish in 3D is troublesome, so it would likely end up like Mario 64, with several large worlds, where you try to get a star or something in the level using powerups and whatnot to do so. Kirby would actually translate to the Mario 64 formula better than Mario did, because Kirby levels are often structured in such a way that would be well translated to 3D.

Jeff: In some ways, yeah.

Cory: 2D Mario levels are USUALLY mostly left to right. Certainly there are exceptions, but those exceptions still generally follow that formula. Kirby levels often change locales through doors a lot, use doors to move throughout a very large area on both the X and Y axes, etc. Kirby levels are more frequently built over a large plane, while Mario levels are more or less on a line that occasionally changes directions. Again, just generalizations here, as there are many exceptions on both sides. In 3D, Kirbys flight would be interesting to handle. Assuming they let him fly without getting tired, they'd have to design levels without true platforming, since he could just fly over any platforming puzzles. Levels would also have to be a lot taller than Mario 64 levels, since Kirbys movement is free on all axes, unlike Marios, which is limited on Y in the 3D games (since he can't limitlessly fly at all times).

Jeff: Which brings up camera issues. I'm not even satisfied with Mario's current camera system.

Cory: Yeah, camera control when you move that freely would be QUITE troublesome.

Jeff: Yes, yes it would.

For several minutes, Cory tried to get Jeff to regain interest and talk some Kirby with him, but to no avail. It was past 4am and Jeff was too far gone for saving. Perhaps another day.