N-Banter Edition 12: Part 1 - Harvest Mooning
Column by Jeff Van Camp, Cory Faller
Edition: 07-10-2005
Two minds...one column. Two motives...one goal. Two editors...one conversation. You have now entered a dimension unlike any other. This is N-Banter.
In the first part of ourfirst two part edition, Cory and I talk almost exclusively about Harvest Moon (and Animal Crossing to a lesser degree). For a series in its second decade of life, the Harvest Moon of today is remarkably identical to the Harvest Moon that started it all. Good or bad?
Cory: When I die, I'm making sure my children are killed with me.
Jeff: You are a cruel and spiteful man.
Cory: Don't worry, I'll make sure YOU'RE killed as well. You're like a son to me, Jeffy boy.
Jeff: Hah. A son you've never actually met in person. Im also only a year younger than you. How does that work?
Cory: Don't you talk back to your father!
Jeff: Every email I received for the upcoming mailbag is related to this freaking HD issue. What the crap. I don't even care about it. I realize its important to some, but I just dont see it being any sort of a make or break issue in the next five years.
Cory: Me either. I'm playing Harvest Moon and good lord, switching between the normal composite and component cables is like I'm removing a solid inch of Vaseline from the screen.
Jeff: Harvest Moon [A Wonderful Life] for GameCube? Wow, it only took you two years to finally play that one.
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| Its a Wonderful Life! |
Cory: Shush.
Jeff: I didn't like it.
Cory: I didn't like it at first either, but then I ended up not being able to stop playing. I got to the point where I was thinking about it when I wasn't playing it.
Jeff: I only played it through a season or two, then quitforever.
Cory: You idiot. Seriouslyidiot.
Jeff: I didn't enjoy it. It wasn't the same.
Cory: You and my old roommate. Man, if I had only played the first season or two, I'd hate it too. It's different. You have to figure out how the game is played. Not play it exactly like the others. And then it stops sucking. You can enjoy it for what you realize it is.
Jeff: I play it and then I play the GBA version (Friends of Mineral Town) and there's no comparison. The GCN version didn't feel polished.
Cory: Haha, that's got to be a joke. Show me a SINGLE Harvest Moon game that's anywhere NEAR polished.
Jeff: Friends of Mineral Town
Cory: Bullshit. That game was a piece of crap.
Jeff: It's a polished Harvest Moon 64.
Cory: They're ALL pieces of crap. Every single one of them.
Jeff: Aah! MY EARS! Sinner!
Cory: Oh hush. That doesn't mean they're not GREAT, but to argue that a Harvest Moon game is polished is FOLLY.
Jeff: I think they're quite polished. I don't play crappy games.
Cory: Ha, you live in delusion. Harvest Moon 64 was one of the biggest and most unpolished pieces of shit ever. And I loved it to DEATH, but I don't argue it's crappy-ass construction.
Jeff: It depends on your definition of polish. How do you think it was unpolished?
Cory: They MISSPEL[L]ED NATSUME ON THE TITLE SCREEN.
Jeff: I don't care about that. Other than that.
Cory: It struggled to render even the very simple graphics that it had. The NPC interaction made my brain bleed. That's the MAIN thing in all Harvest Moon games: NPCs [Non-Player Characters] are utterly useless. For entire SEASONS, they only say TWO thingsevery single day.
Jeff: It's a game built on constant interaction. I've yet to play any game like it that has done NPCs right. AC (Animal Crossing) didn't.
Cory: Zelda does.
Jeff: Yeah right.
Cory: The NPCs in Zelda usually have purpose. You can DO things with them -- interact with them.
Jeff: Once you've completed doing stuff with them they say the same thing. Forever. Just like Harvest Moon.
Cory: In Harvest Moon, every single one of them is useless, except for the chicks you try to woo and even THEYRE useless. The games would be significantly better if Natsume either A) SERIOUSLY beefed up the character interaction concept, or B) completely eliminated the bastards and focused solely on the farm.
Jeff: HM64's NPCs did have a purpose if you knew what you were doing. You could become friends with them and hook them up and get different stuff to happen.
Cory: This is the thing, Jeff. It's not so much that Harvest Moon's NPCs are a million times worse than in other games, but it's that NPCs of that TYPE don't work in the kind of game Harvest Moon is. In an RPG, in Zelda, you go from place to place. You have a purpose and a plot. The entire game doesn't take place in one area where you interact with the same group of people for the whole game.
In a game like Harvest Moon or Animal Crossing, NPCs have to be so much more than they are in other games because you don't have the luxury of meeting new people. You can't get AWAY with people only saying a couple things. You can in other games, cause you usually just talk to them, and move on. But in Harvest Moon, you see them the WHOLE game. In that situation, hearing the same line every day becomes unacceptable.
Jeff: Anyway, here is what bugged me constantly about AWL. I didnt' like the dark blue text color choice and I hated how it zoomed in when you talk to characters. It seemed awkward. What you're describing isn't polish. It's a change in direction or, at the very least, a significant altering. I define polish as the little things.
Cory: No, Jeff. I don't care if it requires significant altering. It's a serious game-crushing flaw that you can't just gloss over. It's laziness, plain and simple. It's Natsume implementing NPCs, and not caring enough to do it right.
Jeff: If it were game crushing, you wouldn't be playing.
Cory: Notice how I say I love these games, but at the same time say they're awful? I love parts of the game -- the farming, a bit of the enjoyment of the world -- but I can't lie to myself and ignore other terrible things. Harvest Moon has more potential than this. It's the pokmon phenomenon: a company completely IGNORING what can be done with the franchise, and taking the easy jerkoff way out.
Jeff: I'm just going to be frank. It never bothered me. Perhaps as time goes on I expect more from NPCs, but for it's time HM64 was very fun and enjoyable to me. But certainly HM needs a makeover and significant changes. It needs to stop being a budget title, but it can't because it doesn't sell. Heh, I wish Nintendo would develop it, but they won't.
Cory: But wait. Problem number two is very similar to problem number one. In Harvest Moon, the ONLY way to increase relations with people is to constantly give them things. You can win a wife by giving her flowers every single day. You don't need to have any other interaction with her. Just smother her with flowers.
Jeff: Yes yes, that was fine in HM64 in my opinion, but Ive grown tired of it since.
Cory: Yeah. Back in the day, fine. I can live with it just fine. But after another 2000 HM games that use the same system, you wonder why Natsume is just making the same game over and over again with slightly increased numbers of crops. I mean, as great as FoMT was, it was the third game where they reused the same character set.
Jeff: Did they have that character set in the original? I never played the SNES version.
Cory: I don't think so.
Jeff: It would be the 2nd game then.
Cory: No, third. HM64, the PSX one, and FoMT
Jeff: The PSX one was an updated port of HM64. That doesnt' count.
Cory: It was completely different. Look at some screens.
Jeff: The PS2 one was different.
Cory: Yes, it was.
Jeff: This is HM64 updated...
Cory: Yeah, but look at this picture. It uses the same tile sets, but I think it's actually a different town. There are different buildings and different events. And a dock with a boat!
Jeff: Yeah, I just saw that. Well anyway. So do you see AC as the answer to some of HM's problems?
Cory: Sigh...AC just introduces a whole NEW set of problems. It focuses TOO MUCH on the character interaction, and it doesn't do it very well. So no, AC is not the answer. AC and HM need to be combined. They each have problems that the other solves...somewhat. AC's character interaction is indeed better, but it still suffers from the core HM issue of gift-giving, which completely restricts character interaction possibilities.
Jeff: Yeah. I cant really disagree with you there.
Cory: The AI in a game like that needs to be the number one thing that the developers work on.
Jeff: Probably the principal motivator for me in HM was to build up my house and get all of the upgrades, along with the hottest chick. AC had no incentives to do all that.
Cory: Exactly. AC has better character interaction, but no drive. You could upgrade, sure, but the work you had to do in order to get money was asinine. In HM that's the best part: building yourself up. In AC, it's a joke.
Cory: (btw, make this an N-Banter.)
Jeff: (btw, I was thinking that like 10 minutes ago.)
Cory: (btw, btw means "by the way.")
Cory: (fyi omg lol)
Jeff: (hehehehe)
Jeff: So you want to develop meaningful relationships with HM characters?
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| Cooking needs a revamp |
Jeff: For that to mean anything and for it to impact story, there would have to be an intricate social network going on. Did HM64 actually have cooking? I mean I collected recipes, but never knew how to cook them. The kitchen was kind of like the patio and picnic table...it was cool but didn't offer many options.
Cory: Yeah, I believe so. The fatal flaw is that if someone tells you a recipe, you don't get it in your cookbook unless you MAKE it. 99% of the time, you don't have the right ingredients when you find a recipe. And by the time you GET them, good luck remembering the recipe.
Jeff: That's for the newer ones. In HM64 you just got the recipes.
Cory: Did you?
Jeff: Yeah.
Cory: Okay. Then they need to bring that the hell back.
Jeff: You'd have to do weird things like give a moon sprite a tomato or something, but they'd just give them to you.
Cory: Speaking of cookingeating in general. I hate that system. Its not fun. I don't want to have to keep feeding my damn character. It's a game, at least let us escape THAT bit of reality. The next thing you know, they'll start requiring you to use the bathroom in your house or else your guy'll have "accidents."
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| Karen |
Cory: Haha, control your wife.
Jeff: All she did was break the eggs.
Cory: Mine too! Fucking Karen.
Jeff: Yup. I tried to get a divorce from her, but the she wouldn't leave me! What the crap is that about?! I was trying to court two other girls, but couldnt get past a green heart. It was a let down.
Cory: The old HM games were too unscripted when it came to kids and wives, but AWL is TOO scripted. They need to strike a balance.
Jeff: I stayed out at the bar every night and won the drinking contest every year.
Cory: Ha, we were both so great at drinking. I went to the bottom of the vineyard, where you could get free wine and I TRAINED. I spent so much time down there just drinking and drinking to build up my tolerance.
Jeff: But yeah, I like how after 3 years Karen's old boyfriend would still tell me "You win, she's yours" in the bar.
Cory: Agh, that's the kind of crap I've been talking about. Laaaaaaaazy.
Jeff: The largest difference between AC and HM currently (aside from what we've already discussed) is that one takes place in real time and the other in a hyperfast gaming time.
Cory: I think Harvest Moon could benefit GREATLY from an AC time system. Hella greatly. They can't just tack it on, it would have to be altered to be appropriate, but I think it would help a lot.
Jeff: See, I don't know about that. In AC since time was never a factor, you'd often just play until there was nothing else to do (say a half hour) and then quit for the day. HM offers much longer play times.
Cory: Yeah. it would definitely feel different with ACs time system. The extra time would give you more freedom, but at the same time restrict you more. You would have a lot more time to get your work done, but it could force you to play it every day.
Jeff: I just think they need to extend the length of days in HM is all. I'd also like more options than 3 girls. AWL should have allowed you to be a girl without buying a new game as well. That's crap. Oh and it could benefit from a random town generator like AC.
Cory: I agree. But there's a third AWL, too, with more stuff in it. But before we discuss that, let me touch on characters/women again.
Jeff: What? Poem of Happiness is coming out. Is that what you mean?
Cory: No, but wait. I want to be able to forge completely open-ended relationships. Namely, each NPC is a blank slate. They have several ingrained tendencies to start out with, but you can go wherever from there. You can make a character despise you. You can marry ANY woman.
Jeff: Or any man. Anyone.
Cory: Intercepted my very IM, but yes. I want it more realistic. I don't want the relationships I forge to be limited. It greatly removes you from the feel of a game that's supposed to feel real. Knowing, ahead of time, A) that I can only marry three chicks, and B) that if I do the right things, they'll DEFINITELY marry me, is very off-putting. There are at least two other chicks in AWL that I'd like to be able to forge romantic relationships with and I hate that there's NO WAY that I can do so.
Jeff: One problem with this is that NPCs might end up all sounding the same. They need individual personalities.
Cory: Well yeah. Thatd be part of their initially ingrained tendencies -- likes, dislikes, mentalities, beliefs, etc.
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| Anns quite the bird lover. |
Jeff: But how would communication work? You can't obviously share your beliefs with them. It would be one sided.
Cory: Well they'd all have unique beliefs and you couldn't just always be "I totally agree!" because it would make people think you're a phony and then they'd ALL start to dislike/distrust you. So you'd have to stick to your guns, and run with what you truly believe. You could be friends and nice with all the nice people or be an old grump and be grumpy buddies with a group of old farts and yell at the whippersnappers. You can make your character however you want, and have him interact with whoever in the town closely matches his personality. Kind of like Fable, I guess. Never played it.
Jeff: Fable. Haha, you're funny. Fable did one thing well...if you killed good people you started to look evil...if you killed bad people you began to look good. Villagers would react in fear or admiration based on looks and very vague reputations. The whole game was one big invitation for potential, but none of it was realized.
But anyway, all that interaction talk is well and good, but it sounds like too much text at times. And another thing: you cant even invite someone for a walk. You can't communicate at all unless you go find them.
Cory: There needs to be leagues of options for every character, every interaction, but they shouldn't be presented to you. think of it like one of those old text games where you can go all "LOOK CAR," "RIDE CAR," "SHOOT CAR" -- not knowing which option would ever work. They could build in a system that registers virtually all known verbs and nouns that occur in the game, so you could interact directly -- via keyboard/voice control.
Jeff: That sounds overly complicated. I don't want a keyboard. I want a controller.
Cory: No, it's incredibly simple. Well, from the user standpoint, at least, because you just say whatever you want. You say what would make sense.
Jeff: I dunno. Voice is nice, but I'd like more options than that.
Cory: You don't jump through retarded hoops; you just do the logical thing. You want to ask Nami out? Go up to her, and ask her out. You don't have to give her skulls and autumn flowers for a year, then throw a blue flower at her.
Jeff: That's something for the far future. I can't see a good voice game for a while. Would she respond in text?
Cory: Yeah. Forget the method of imputing words for now. I'm just talking conceptually here.
Jeff: So the game would have to assess and output unique text based on her character and response?
Cory: Yep.
Jeff: Easier said than done. Especially when you're talking about translating this to multiple languages.
Cory: Well, kinda. I mean, most things would be pre-constructed. Like, when you ask her out there could be 5-10 programmed responses. Youd get the one that best fits your proposal with her/your characteristics and existing relationships. If you killed her mother, you wouldnt get a good response. However, if you give her a car, maybe it will play out a little different. Characters could build familiarity with you based upon how much they see you, too (not just how much they talk to you).
Jeff: So kind of like when AC characters ask you questions? Except, of course, youd have to fill in the shells that are AC character personalities.
Cory: If you ask a chick on a date out of the blue, her response would be based on a certain set of characteristics -- only those that are immediately evident and her personality. Some chicks would never say yes in that situation. If you see a chick a lot; she's familiar with you; maybe she'll be more receptive. If you casually talk with her pretty often, maybe shell be even MORE receptive.
Jeff: In all seriousness, the coolest thing about AC was when a neighboring villager commented to me that I always run around and that I should walk more often. It stood out precisely because I did run everywhere and usually run right past that person.
Cory: That IS cool. And forgive me if these are all things that are already in The Sims. I've never played the game. If all I'm saying is "combine Harvest Moon, Animal Crossing, and The Sims", so be it.
Jeff: Well some of them are. The Sims is based entirely on interaction. You can have relationships with anyone. But characters don't really talk. They speak in Sim talk. So what you see is emotions alone. It focuses on relationship health alone. The problem is that The Sims as a concept doesnt' work well without a keyboard and mouse. A lot of its appeal is in building your house and such, or trying to bag 3 chicks at the same time. You should play it sometime.
Cory: The art style and completely real-world universe turn me off a bit. It looks so incredibly generic.
Jeff: Nah. See, it may turn you off, but once you actually play it, you see that it's fine. The Sims 2 allows you to create a character that even looks just like yourself with all the options they give you. I think the art style is fine. It works for that game. But normally, I'd agree with you 100%. Another cool thing about The Sims is that you can download hundreds or thousands of custom skins, items, and whatnot. So it is easy to find things with unique personality.
Cory: Hrm. I dunno. In a game like that it starts to be an uncanny valley issue.
Jeff: Nah. Maybe it starts, but hasn't become a problem yet. It's a game you have to play to understand -- much like Sim City. Or AC and HM, for that matter.
Cory: Fair enough. So anyway, what else haven't we addressed (in relation to failings in either HM or AC)?
Jeff: Well I still have an issue with the sheer amount of text and interaction we want here. I think we're asking for the moon. We need to think realistic. What could they do to improve other aspects of HM? The farming aspect, for one?
Cory: I don't know if I'm wrong about this, but I don't think AWL tells you what seasons the seeds you can buy will grow in until you actually buy them. It's in the instruction manual, but not in the game.
Jeff: Not sure on that one. I know in HM64 they did. I think being able to sell your goods and open up a shop would be cool. Having a village where you can buy land and set up a shop or turn your own ranch into one like the Green Ranch would be really cool.
Cory: Wow, you really didn't play a lot of AWL.
Jeff: Nope.
Cory: Van shows up 2-3 days a month to buy your stuff.
Jeff: Yeah I saw that, but it's not what I'm talking about.
Cory: But when he's not there, all you can get money from is milk and eggs, in your bins. Other than THAT though, everything else you sell, vegetables, fruit, tools, whatever, you sell by setting up your own shop in town. People that walk by will stop at your shop and you can sell them things.
Jeff: Where at?
Cory: The same place Van stops by.
Jeff: Interesting. That's a good idea. That whole game is so scripted though. I can't stand having to marry in the first 40 days.
Cory: See, that marrying thing isn't as stressful as I would've thought. I'm only part of the way into the second season, and I'm already getting antsy for the marriage, since the game's a lot more about post-marriage life than pre-marriage (child-rearing and all), which is something the other games never really did. So it'll be jarring, yes, if you're so used to the old games. In the old ones, wives and children were useless; in AWL, they're integral. And that's something that bothers the shit out of me. You don't really "date" these women. You don't really do ANYTHING romantic with them. You just give them a lot of gifts, and then propose. You never even imply romantic intentions! You go from "chick and guy who can't stop giving her gifts" to married, just like that.
Jeff: Women like gifts. They are materialistic.
Cory: Ha.
Jeff: I wonder how it works in the girl version.
Cory: The same, I'm sure.
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| It's my farm. |
Cory: True. You can do a lot with the farming (to an extent), but everything else is locked into place.
Jeff: Yeah and in AWL they even tell you where you have to have the grass and where you can grow crops. It's MY farm!
Cory: Okay, in AWL, when I put a chicken in the field, so I don't have to feed it, it DISAPPEARS in the grass. I have to spend SERIOUS TIME finding my freaking chickens. And the eggs are even worse!
Jeff: Yeah. Here's the kind of thing I like: being able to put chickens on my roof in HM64 and them surviving. That was awesome, though probably a glitch.
Cory: Heh. I wish I could've put my baby up thereor could I? I don't remember now!
Jeff: I tried to kill my baby so often. But yeah, I want to be able to take a cow anywhere if I leash it up. To be able to try and sell my goods on the side or even take orders for people to buy in bulk. There is a ton that could be done to make that side of the game so much more intriguing and addictive
Cory: Getting the horse in AWL is great. It DRASTICALLY speeds up your travel time, because unlike in all the other games you can take it everywhere.
Jeff: Before we go any further...CoryI'm carrying your child.
Cory: That's... that's impossible!
THE SUSPENSE!
From here on in, the conversation took off in a new direction. Major topics include Sonic the Hedgehog, Pokmon, Kirby, a bit of Metroid Prime, and even some debate over 2D versus 3D games in general. What franchises have really survived the move to 3D intact? Stay tuned for Part 2 of this N-Banter, which will go live next Sunday night (or sooner). Cliffhangers are fun!