A Difficulty Decision Revisited - Page 3
I'm a young gamer (I'm 13 at the moment) and I first started playing games on my old dos computor, Mostly enjoying Lucas Art adventure classics like the Monkey Island series, and the old Doom series. My first console I baught was the N64, in the middle of its lifespan. Later I found the old (1st) Nintendo system at a garage sale, I purchased it for a $1 along with a game, Mario Bros. and Duck Hunt (two in one). I never got to buy, or even play Super Nintendo (I keep my eyes peeled for them at grage sales though).
The point is i'm a Nintendo acaholic and and would never purchase a Sony or Microsoft system. I completly agree with your article, I recently rented Turok Evolution for GCN, and knowing I only had a week to beat it (including having to attend school) I wanted to be able to beat the game. So I used invincible, all guns, ect. cheats, and by reading your article, I'v realized that I'v always enjoyed being able to use cheats, I loved having the feel of not being able to die or lose. Especialy in FPS, I loved having the power of all guns to kill hords of baddies without getting a scratch. I'm also really love adventure games (Monkey Island being my favorite). I never wanted to get a stradegy guide, because I knew it would just ruin the story, thought it does come times when it gets so frusteratiog I whip it out anyway...
I like usualy using cheats in bad FPS, or when I have beaten the game, or when I just CAN'T beat the game. I did have a gameshark for the N64, but dont plan on purchasing one for the GCN. I own Mario Sunshine, and haven't cheated, or gave up yet. So I beleive only the real young kids are the people who like it easier, but by the time you reach my age, you start seeing the true meaning of challenge.
P.S.- I just reread/checked this, and its mostly just me blabbering (sorry) But I just had to right something...
Thats all I have to say. BTW love the article, and love your site. Your articles always intrest me, ;) keep it up. Andrew Wright
Great editorial Jason. It was perfect timing too, considering the release of Super Mario Sunshine. Mario 64 is great, but damn is it easy. There's almost no difficulty to the game at all. Though I hate to say Sunshine is better as it definitely isn't as ground-breaking as Mario 64, the challenge presented is just so perfect, the platforming so diverse in the skills it requires.
Kids and games today though are like anything else. Due to their widespread, mainstream appeal, they exhibit the child mentality in a new way. First of all: kids think they are invincible. They try flying off the dresser, they race their bikes against cars, they play with dangerous stuff, etc. Video gaming is no different. I know some kids that instantly search for cheat codes the minute they get the game. Why? So they have power! Games give kids powers, and kids always want more. They want to be able to hang in the air for 2 full minutes and do a 900 thirty times over in Tony Hawk. Notice the ridiculous number of money maps in StarCraft. The examples are endless. Kids these days aren't looking for challenge. Because what's the fun in that? These kids want power, and beating every opponent or beating the game in 20 minutes make them invincible. Machiavelli would be proud. :)
I for one am glad of the new difficulty in games. I hope it pushes out some of these "me-too" gamers that music seems to have the same difficulty with. I was much happier with gaming the way it was before it became "cool". But that's getting into an entirely different topic. Tony DeRuiter
I was reading your article on the challenge in video games these days. Granted it was quarter-to-7am, I have to totally agree with your thoughts. I too agree that cheats, and just winning for the sake of saying you got through the game or beat someone, robs the game of its real purpose, and in turn, is like abusing the medium.
I am 19 years old (twenty in November), and I started my gaming on the original NES. I still have all my old systems in good working order, and still play them.
I recall one day, in the NES period, my dad was watching me play Super Mario Bros., and he was impressed with how quickly I was getting through the level, finding various items, etc. The reason I did as well as I did at that age was most likely because of what you said about my/our generation. Basically, we are in it for the challenge. I had yet to beat the game, and wouldn't do so until a few years later. The point is that I was being challenged, and I loved it.
On other occasions, I recall playing against kids of the next generation. I must honestly say it was frustrating. They complained about not winning, and they would give up easily if defeated numerous times. They had not the patience to face the challenge of a more skilled opponent, and therefore, they were not learning from it.
This is one of the factors I think separates my/our generation from the next. Patience is something that seems to be overall lacking in the upcoming generation. They wish to achieve with little or no effort, by--as you have mentioned--taking advantage of everything to walk them through the game, whether it be cheats, guides, etc. It feel like my generation's code of honor is being forgotten or insulted.
One last trip through memory lane. I was playing Super Smash Bros.: Melee at a Gamecube kiosk in a local Sam Goody store, and a notably younger gamer came up to the console and picked up the other controller. He asked, and I had no choice but to let him play (be it politeness, or that need of challenge). So we played and we both won a few rounds. I wasn't really keeping score. He was a good sport about defeat, I thought. He was disappointed, but a good sport about it. I was just laughing and carrying on at the outrageous, comical carnage onscreen, as I usually do.
So, in my last efforts to make sense, I will let my opinion be heard about games, and the importance of difficulty and challenge.
Games of this console generation are much more capable than any before, to challenge the gamer. More is possible. One thing that is a problem with games today is the importance people hold on a game looking photorealistic. I don't think that was ever the intention of video games. The purpose of games, electronic or not, are to provide entertainment, and challenge. Sometimes the challenge can be used to strengthen the mind in preparation for the real world. As absorbing as realistic games are, they sometimes are too reliant on that facet of their development. Metroid Prime is a wonderful example of the escape from this trend in realism-focus. If you are going to make a game who's name will be etched in gaming history, you need to make it challenging. If I'm wrong, please, someone tell me of a game that people will forever regard as a legend mostly for its visual prowess.
I also see the importance of a game's level of challenge returning, and eagerly await where it will take the industry. I hope that young gamers realize that winning is not everything, and accepting defeat and learning through it is honorable.
DIFFICULTY FUNNY
Aaron Hendren
Jason,
I just read you article, "A Difficulty Decision" and one thing struck me right off the bat. I totally agree with you that the younger generation just want to win no matter what. I have two young nephews (ages 7 and 11). Whenever they come to my house, they beg to play my Gamecube. I usually let them, knowing full heartedly that it will end in frustration. After about 5 minutes of gaming, they start asking me how to beat levels, bosses or whatever else is on the screen at the time. I never tell them thinking that they will eventually figure it out for themselves, but they never do. They usually just turn of the Gamecube and complain that they're bored. BORED!?!?!?! I don't think I even knew what bored was until I was 15 or 16 and I started working. When I ordered Super Mario Sunshine directly from Nintendo, it came with a players guide. I have never opened the guide and I never plan to, but it's the first thing my nephews look for when they are stuck. I have now hidden the guide as to not tempt them. What is with that. When we were young (I'm now 28) there were no players guides or hint codes (unless you were willing to pay Nintendo in the form of a huge phone
bill) and we managed to get through most, if not all, games on our own. I remember playing games for 6, 8 and sometimes 10 hours straight (usually a Zelda game) trying to beat a boss or level or castle. Now, my nephews just give up and turn off the machine if they cannot beat something. It really upsets me. My mom and/or dad would have to tear me away from my NES machine and now the kids just throw it down like nothing. I think the main reason for this is because there is so much more available to them than there was available to us at there age. Or maybe it's that their attention span is just not what ours was back in the day. Anyway, enough ranting and raving. Thanks for an outstanding article.
Shawn Kearney
Tonight, I was as ever rounding over the net when finally come to your site, N-sider and as ever I get impressed about your articles. I think that you guys over N-sider do a great job for us, the Old Gamer Comunity.
About the theme of dificulty on gaming, I'm getting with my two nephews on test, and there no more way than agrre with you. There's no more challenging for kids, the only thing they want is win of if not, they prefer look how I play the games. I have played with them (4 & 3 years) to SSBM, Wave Race, and Luigi's Mansion and the thing you wrote on the article is a real one. Maybe, my two nephews are too much young...
Thanks for all of your work doing N-sider a cult-site for Nintendo Old Crowns. Tanasten
This is a great topic. I am 26 and have been into games since Atari
2600, I even had the original Pong. I still love video games, perhaps
now more than ever, though I have much less time to spend with them. I
think you make some great points about generational gaps and what not.
I want to first point out that there are indeed two camps of gamers,
and these camps are not necessarilly an age divide. I have a friend who
is a month older than I am and who enjoys video games. While he had the
same experiences as I do, he has absolutely no qualms with getting
walkthroughs or watching someone play through a game before he himself
has. He was recently watching me play Mario Sunshine and after an hour
or so wanted to play himself, and then proceeded to do everything that I
had just done that he hadn't figured out yet. I also have a younger
cousin, 12, that desires challenges and looks down very contemptuously
at my older friend. So, there is definately a camp that just wants to
play the game as something to do and not as any challenge or
acheivement, and another camp that wants a challenge. I am sure it will
always be this way.
The second thing I want to address is how games can deal with
difficulty. You are right about games made by nintendo. What I really
love in a game is when you can know what has to be done and knowing does
not make it any easier. For example, the same friend I mentioned above
was having trouble beating the Fish Boss in Majora's Mask, even with the
walkthrough sitting next to him. I told him exactly what he needed to
do, and still he could not manage it. Finally, he grovelled
pathetically and begged me to beat the Boss for him. I refused and
laughed heartilly, and when he hadn't beat the Boss a week later, I gave
in and quickly dispatched him, still laughing at my sad, unskilled
friend. My point being that I think Nintendo games generally have these
kinds of challenges more so than many other games. Regardless, I hope
that all game companies work on making games more challenging for
everyone, and for those who lack the skills or need to fight an empty
controller in order to feel like a "winner".
-brian adams
I have noticed the same thing you speak of in most gamers of my age and younger (I'm 17, but I've been gaming since the Commodore/ Atari days). They don't really care about the struggle to win as much as the win itself. I think a lot of the fault in this lies in that kids, in general, seem to be more competitive now then they used to be, and less inclined to really focus on one thing for a long period of time. Also they are so much busier now that they don't have as much time to dedicate to pondering that puzzle or improving their gaming skills. They want the same enjoyment as the older generation, but they want it compacted into a shorter time period and without the hard work. Ah well, just my random rant. Nice article; nice site!
Kate
Dear Jason,
Just read your highly insightful piece on game difficulty. I can totally agree with you. I was thinking though that there is indeed an additional third gamer. You know the one, the dreaded "casual gamer". I have come across many of these lately. Gamers of various ages, who play games for a quick fix or play because "insert socially acceptable game here" is cool. They insist on winning or expect social standing based on having "played" the game, regardless of if they enjoyed it or even managed to complete it. These gamers are the bain of my life as they often talk like they have been gaming for years and know the industry as well as "hardcore" or "older" gamers like myself.
I would consider myself "hardcore" / "older" yet I can name only about half a dozen games I have finished. I eventually reach a point where the challenge is too hard. Yet I never stoop to using walk throughs or cheats. Personally I have found alot more satisfaction in multiplayer gaming over the years in all it's forms. This is the one sacred realm of "hardcore" / "older" gamers. As multiplayer has historically been relatively free of cheats and walk throughs and a players real skill can be seen. Over recent times this sacred realm has been invaded by "younger" "casual" gamers who in there quick fix, win or else mentality have bought their hacks and cheats. This is my greatest concern as an older gamer. Single player can go the easy street for all I care, just don't let the "true hardcore" realm of gaming become infested with cheats and hacks.
Great article man, look forward to the follow up.
Regards,
Chris
I swear, between the two of you, Nintendo Fanatics is going to have to do something drastic to compete when the site gets finished. Damn, from Irate Gamers 4 to the Generation Gap, those are some of the best articles I've read about gaming. My hats off to both of you.
Greg S
Crossbeam Studios
I'm just on the tail end of the older gamers, I'm only 18, but I stiil remember dieing a million times in Ninja Gaiden, only to hit reset and start again. What was even crazier was that I bought the sequel and I still haven't been able to beat either. There has never been anything as challenging since. Even in the 16-Bit era games were tough, but when the 32/64 generation came along, i never had to try ever. I got through both N64 Zeldas and Mario without ever dying or really worrying, or breaking a sweat. When I pull games out like these, my 10 year old nephew is eager to play, and loves these games. However, when I do pull out the nes and snes games, he gets frustrated with them in minutes. He still hasn't even made it through the first level of Contra! Even friends a year or two younger than me have this problem, one guy I know is an avid gamer, but with every game comes a strategy guide, and you won't see him playing a game without a strategy guide on his lap, because afterall hes still playing so technically hes not cheating. This kind of behaviour makes me sick, and I truly hope that people grow out of this. But, all is not bleak, because as you mentioned, Mario Sunshine is a hard game, and both PD and Goldeneye are next to imposible to master. I hope that games do continue to get harder, because I like to get value out of what I buy, and I hate buying a game only to have beaten it within hours of bringing it home. And to everyone who thinks that they have patience and don't need to cheat, play Ninja Gaiden, if you can beat that without putting your foot through the screen then I salute you. Naxos
A very interesting read, to be sure, especially much of the last page on how younger generations seem to cheat when trying to beat a game, and on how difficulty in games is created. That's a quality editorial you wrote. Keep it up! Nathan Green
Jason:
Having just finished reading your part 2 of "A Difficulty Decision", I have come away with a sense of satisfaction (that not all gaming newswriters are total morons), and can most assuredly tell you that "Difficult Decision" is by far the most insightful and well written article I have read at ANY online gaming newssite. Bar NONE. The points are all well made, not forced, and carry their weight with responsibility. So anyways lets get to what I wanted to discuss.
I think many people will agree with you on the points made in part 1, and that is that gaming as a whole has slowly been moving away from difficulty. This can be so easily noted by the fact that as consoles changed to the 32 bit era, and slowly phased in 3d games (i define this as movement in 3 directions) and CD media, we slowly started getting less challenging gameplay and more "immersion". You know what im talking about. Look at rpgs: not everyone's cup of tea, but it will serve for an example. You will seldom hear any Squaresoft fan worth his salt publicly insulting a FF (unless you frequent very serious forums), but there are grumbles in the community. The gaming becoming less challenging, and relying more on FMVs and "wow factor" of the 3d design.
Like you mentioned, platformers of course suffer the most. Gamers are humans, and as such they can only handle a certain amount of micromanagement at once. If too much nuance, too much freedom is given at once (or a very steep learning curve), then they will be unable to enjoy the game, and will be bogged down in learning how to play it. There is a big difference after all in interacting with the game world and interacting with the game interface (for the record, I think this is what Nintendo's in house teams excels at). Therefore, development houses that want to make 3d games (since theyre the only thing that can be profitable) have to make compromises in areas of gameplay in order to make sure that the controller is intuitive to use, and the gameplay mechanics aren't overly complex. The matter is how much they cut corners, and how well they do it. One example of an interesting battle system is PS2's Mark of the Kri, which lets you target multiple enemies at once. Another interesting one is the recently released Kingdom Hearts. Square retains their "menu" system while integrating it into a realtime battle. It takes a good development team to make good controls. But good controls aren't always the overriding factor, because they have to be coupled with good gameplay.
Now with the age difference matter. Anyone who has ever come into contact with this matter (or had younger siblings or cousins) knows that it is certainly not an easy matter to discuss. It's easy to just write it off as immaturity, but I think that if it becomes a habitual matter, then yes, it can become a mentality. Your points about the new generation of gamers needing to "win" or "beat" a game are all interesting. I think Nintendo is subtley trying to combat this to some extent. Their games are of the right difficulty curve that they provide the more hardcore and the "old school" gamers a challenge, while not being too hard as to scare off new gamers. The interesting part lies in the way the games have a greater number of "unlocked secrets" which are exponentially difficult to obtain in the latter parts of the game. Take for example the last 20 or so shines from Mario Sunshine, or the secret stages and characters of SSBM. Even with the aid of a walkthrough, these are goals which challenge any caliber player to hone their skills instead of simply put the game down after getting to "The End". Still, not all games even have conclusions at all. We're beginning to see games that are catered to an audience that enjoys games on a different level, which is almost completely devoid of the quarter-pumping challenge of yore. Im talking about Animal Crossing, and to a lesser extent the pokemon "catching" style game. These games obviously were made with the home system in mind, as they seek to make the gameplay experience as enduring as possible. Of course this type of game cannot rely on challenge alone, or even as a major premise, because a typical gamer will either completely master the difficulty curve in time, or get so frustrated with the challenge mechanics as to never play again.
I think the matter also lies in the fact that gaming is becoming more of an "in thing" or an expected requirement of youth. Kids aren't playing games for the challenge, they're playing games because their parents bought them and they have access to them. I don't think theres anyway to explicitly define the issue, because to some extent it probably existed in the previous generations as well. Of course the need to win also can be a vector for improvement. Obviously if two kids are playing smash bros, one has got to win and the other has got to lose. Theres no two ways around that, and thats always been the case. As for cheat devices and walkthroughs, I would personally never use them (ok on rare occasions I use walkthroughs to get past a technical puzzle or so that can not be solved because it would take too much time or I simply don't understand what the objective is due to poorly stated goals) but I think that you just have to deal with it. It's not one of those things that gamers could outlaw (not with real legislation, but like with a moral code), but you just have to show people you game with how it ruins the fun of the game.
In case you're wondering which of your demographics I fit into, im 19. I've owned the NES (Japanese Famicom, to be precise), SNES, N64 and GC. I also have a Dreamcast as well as PS2. Anyways, I look forward to an update to your article.
Regards,
Jason Hsu
While the Age gap observations in many cases are accurate I'd like to share a story, also surrounding SSBM. I have three little girl cousins who absolutely love SSB, they came over for my sister's high school graduation and I had my Gamecube and SSBM waiting for them. We played and polayed, and at first when I won they did groan, but I never was asked to give up. However after a few wins and groans I said that they won't win by complaining to me, so they put more effort into it and--they beat me--all three of them! Simply put with younger generation while they put winning above all else, if in a situation with them, simply deny them wins for cheap reasons, and basically encourage them to work on it harder, and well it works. I am really proud of my little cousins after they beat me fair and square and I let them know when they won too. Its just a story I wanted to tell I guess.
--Laserkid
Dear Jason, As you can see by my e-mail address, I work at ******* in ******, as a game tester. I would appreciate it if you kept my name and company anonymous, but feel free to mention that I am a game tester if you print this letter. I agree completely with pretty much every point you made in your article. I have been thinking the same thing for years now, with the main example being when Zelda: TOoT was released. I am not exaggerating when I say that I had been desperately wanting the game for around 3 years before the game was even released. I was quite obsessed. Anyway, one night I was at a party at a friends house when I noticed that her younger brother was playing Zelda: TOot. We started talking about it, and I asked him if he thought it was tough. His response was "I don't know, I bought the strategy guide". This was almost too much for me to handle. Not even trying to play the game on his own, he used the guide as he played though the first time. Now had it been any other game, I would have thought it was ridiculous, poked fun at him for a bit, and forgot about it. But this was Zelda, and action was necessary. Lets just say I don't think he ever found that guide again. I am vehemently opposed to using guides or walk throughs during the first play through of a game. Obviously, there are instances when a puzzle cannot be figured out, or a place that is just too difficult. However, figuring out when that is requires at least a couple of hours stuck on one particular spot. Then, and only then, in my opinion, is the use of outside help ok. Once a game has been beaten, legitimately, guides and walkthroughs are allowed to find secrets and items that the player might have missed the first time through.
I agree that games had gotten easier during the 32/64 bit era, with obvious exceptions. Games today however are also definitely getting difficult again. Currently I am playing through Mario Sunshine, and it is definitely far more difficult than Mario 64.
Great work on the article and the site. I'd love to hear back from you.
That was a truly Great article. Every word was pure solid gold. But I would like to say one thing about the kid (your fiancees nephew?): You shouldn't have let him win. No, in fact you should've kicked his ass majorly. Wiped the floor with him. 'Cause that's the only way he'll ever try to actually *become* better, instead of demanding his way through. I do that all the time with my little brother and his friends, and they all have improved _tremendously_ after some good whuppins'. Now they whoop *my* ass. ;) And we always have a great time (well, except when I lose *joke* :D)
So don't be afraid to make him lose. Otherwise he'll never learn, and he'll just become a 3D-"I like it easy!" -game addict. And you wouldn't want that, now would you? ;)
-SandMage, 15 years, Finland.
"SNES and 2D for-eva, man!"
i just read you're article and i wanted to tell you that i now how you feal.i'm 15 but i'm not like the gamers you were talking about.my first game was buble boble when i was 7(and i finished it on the arcades)and my first console genesis(mega drive for me).And now i have a NGC,The other day i was playing super smash bross melle and i told my cousin to play.he didn't want to because he said i beat him.the same for sonic adventure 2 batle.he only plays with me tekken 3 because i always lose(not that i care).and my best friend and i where playing digimon rumble arena on his playstation.and at first i always lost.but after we played for an hour i began winning and got 7 wins without losing.he got mad and starting saying i'm always using the same tricks and stuff.just so that i let you know you're not the only one dissapointed.and i don't have grown up friends and it's tough to find someone to play with.oly my other cousins(only that i live in europe and they live in the states so i don't see them much)want to play with me. Pilot
Hello, I just checked your article, I have to say that I agree with you, the new gamers just wanna finish the game, it doesnt matter how, just want to finish, I remember how I suffered with bart vs the world or megaman 1, and now, at least my cousins just ask me "what should I do", or "just beat this boss please",the nice of the games is to beat it for yourself, break your head thinking all day how to solve a puzzle, the last week my cousin came to my house, she just played smash melee in very easy, she defeated everyone but the hand, and she asked me to defeat it, where is the fun if you just avoid the hard part of the game, or turok 2 is a good example, I played it for weeks before I finished it, but my cousin just want the maximum cheat to beat it, anyway, I think the new games are not so challenging like the old school games, they are good, I think Zelda 64 is the masterpiece but is too easy compared with games like bartvsworld of TMNT1 or zelda or megaman 1, I hated that game, is really hard, but I hope the new games to be harder than before, but I think is the opposite of that, they will be easier, for example megamanx(Im sorry Im a big fan of him), megamanx3 was the hardest game of the megamanx, the x4 was a little hard, x5 was relatively easy, but the x6 is really easy, and I think the market will go that way, see ya. Edgar Omar Cebolledo Gutirrez
started playing video games as a younger player. Enjoying the Genesis and my friend's NES and SNES madly, I would never use guides (I was only six) and would sometimes get stuck for days on the same puzzle or challenge. Nowadays I do admit to using a guide OCCASIONALLY. I was never around for the "old-school" arcade games, but I do frequently play the newer ones at the mall. I agree with what you are saying. I personally enjoy the feeling of just DOING it, by myself, and winning in the end. I still remember my little six-year-old self, diligently trying to blast that same alien for three weeks in The Lost Vikings. I really enjoyed your article. Just in case you don't get any other good mail.
Playing Star Fox Adventures,
Josh Kaplan
Jason Nuyens